Monday, June 16, 2008

Dasvatharam and Chaos theory

As I mentioned in my previous post, Dasavatharam was yet another ordinary movie in my view and honestly it doesn't deserve a second post. But when Kamal fans start extapolating its greatness especially with respect to chaos theory, butterfly effect and Kamal's genius in closely knitting these into the story line, it is my duty to convey whatever I felt on those lines.

To begin with, what is chaos theory and what is butterfly effect? If you are too good at Maths and equations/scientific notions are everything for you, you should be able to comprehend the wiki definitions of chaos theory and buttefly effect. But if you are a layman like me, the illustration of this concept is pretty simple. Let's assume that there is a huge mountain strip whose peak is as high as Mt.Everest. Assume that I'm letting a small bouncing ball roll off the peak. If I let go of the ball from two different positions even inches apart, the place where this ball lands up is going to be differing to a great extent - perhaps two different countries altogether. This extreme sensitivity to the initial state or the starting point is called butterfly effect. Why is it called so? Since weather is a chaotic system, the displacement of air that the flap of a butterfly's wings can alter the path of a tornado... Sounds silly? Imagine this way... If a tornado is at its infancy where air pressure is starting to build up, and that eye is displaced a few inches by the flap of a butterfly's wings, then this small displacement (like the positions inches away on Mt. Everest) can cause a huge difference in the end point of the tornado. Perhaps, it can even stop the tornado if the flap happened to counteract the pressure that was starting to build. So the butterfly actually didn't make or break the tornado consciously but it just happened as a conaequence of its flap especially since the tornado was at its infancy. Chaos theory talks about the seemingly random (randomness is always interesting) dynamic systems (systems that involve constant changes in state) that are sensitive to their intial states as in the butterfly effect. This could be seen as the modified version of 'Karma' that Hinduism describes.

Coming to the question of what Dasavatharam to do with this, I honestly find it difficult to answer. The most common interpretation that Kamal fans give is that the course of action is being changed by each and every role of Kamal and there lies the beauty of the film. Well, let us think... If that is the case, there are so many (or should I say all) movies that have destiny playing a role. A crossing dog causes an accident where a young girl is made a widow or a rash driver hits a petrol pump that kills hundreds; are some common examples of this pattern. So it doesn't have anything to do with Dasavatharam in particular, is my point. Kamal/Ravikumar has just found out an alternate name for fate.

Second point is on the butterfly effect. Anyone sensible would understand that this should've happened only at the beginning of the movie if at all it happened. So Kamal is dropped with a huge Vishnu idol and since the Vishnu idol hit the bottom of the ocean and it created a δx differntial in the tectonic plate, it changed the course of a Tsunami and that tsunami changes the fate of a state. Accepted. But if this is the case, how does the scientist character or anyone for that matter infer that it is because of this incident and narrate that in a public gathering? It's like someone in New Orleans explaining which flap of which butterfly caused hurricane Katrina. To me the whole Nambi sequence nothing more than a baseless accusation on the Saivites. I've observed Kamal pointing out to saivism and saivites particularly on the negative side during his interviews (see video below) and this has taken it to new heights.



The incident that he points out in this interview is a contest between Jains and Saivites (Pandiyas) on the greatness of their Gods and the jains started the contest saying they could prove their greatness failing which they'll commit suicide. When they failed, half of them ran away and the rest committed suicide. This incident comes to Kamal's mind even when he is drunk and he takes this as a negative example while there are a million other points to quote about the changing culture.

The article on Kulothunga chozha in wiki would throw some light on what actually happened in the reign of the king.

Put together as much as I admire Kamal as a good actor, it is surprising when his fans call him 'Alwarpet Andavar' (God from Alwarpet) and quote 'I'm not an atheist like Kamal because he is my God'; for he is neither Einstein nor Vivekananda to be workshipped scientifically or spiritually. :)

18 comments:

Unknown said...

Maapi .. a lil bit on the heavier side for me to understand!! Again, will come back after watching the movie

Smiles,
Vinayak

Rams said...

Excellent! Couldn't have explained the theories in more simpler terms...

BTW I like the video on how he attacks the hypocrisies surrounding "tamil culture" while I do admit I didn't know the "samanargal kazhuvil yettrapattanar" incident nor the verity of it...

Yes, if the movie were to bring out these theories, then i shud say it wasn't even slightly apparent but for the mention of the words and a graphic butterfly flitting around in a scene or two...

Nice one!

Agni said...

@Vinayak

Mappu... When you take a look at some blogs of Kamal fans you will come to know. They are writing their conclusions down first (Kamal is brilliant and the movie has to be great) and then they start hunting for reasons. You'll know it better when you watch the movie.

@Rams

I like that video too. His anger was justified and it was such a punching sarcastic remark when he said we tried to name the movie as Avvayaar, Kittivaasal... :) But his words on saivites suddenly struck me when I was penning down this post.

As for the movie, there were too many confusions. Usually Tamil movies don't have 10 predominant roles in total. Added to that it all has to be Kamal and he has to prove his acting abilities by totally diversifying the characters. So what else could remain apart from confusions? :))

ஸ்ரீனிவாசன் said...

Maapla, Chaos theory nalla explain pannuna. well, how it comes in the movie?One instance: If Bush stopped the flight to India ? If the flight has been called back, the story will end there. Then again regarding the Nambi part: Tsunami was created due to the earthquake in Philipines...but the statue was fallen somewhere near chennai, so this clears the testonic plate distrubance concept. So even i am wondering wats the relation between nambi and presen ? re-incarnation ? not sure !!!!

So with this, i told u the relationship btw dasa n chaos theory....so ur blog title has been answered, but for rest of ur post: Kamal beleives athiesm and u beleive theism...thats it !!!!

Out of the Topic:
Regarding shaivites and vaishnavites, he's giving the facts. It's all true, it happened years ago. Now we have concepts like Atheism and more religions, so now no one is picking up on the old shiv-vishnu fights. Also Shaivites were bit more arrogant, coz lots of shatriyas and hard working people followed shiva and the soft nature followed Vishnu.So it raised the conflicts !!!!

Agni said...

@Srini

Chaos theory adhu dhaannaa, it is a part of every movie is my point. Vidhiyinaal nadandhadhu nu namma padangalla kaattra ellaatthayumae indha chaos theory kkulla fit panna mudiyum. For instance Final Destination padatthula death ellatthayum thoratthuraa maadhiri kaattradhu kooda oru vagaila chaos theory dhaan... So dasa special edhvum illa... And when you quote tsunami it's butterfly effect. I agree. Aanaa adha eppidi hero kamal note panna mudinjadhu? The whole concept of chaotic systems is that none can trace back in a systematic way as to where everything started. The Nambi character was supposed to be the previous incarnation of scientist and so is Asin's character. The point there is when you make some change to the system, you need to balance it one way or the other and if you don't do it in this birth, it follows you to the next birth. That is why I pointed out to Karma.

Atheism and theism is not the point. It's about insulting other's believes. Perumal urchavar a edhao bomma maadhiri aalaalukku thookkittu paoradhellaam comedy a illaiyaa? Can he do the same with a Jesus statue? Idhukkulla padam ban aayirukkum.

And on the saivite vaishnavite track - I never opposed that Saivites and Vaishnavites had conflict of interests. It has always been there and even today there are Iyengars (vaishnavites) who don't enter a Siva temple. I'm not sure how you jumped into the conclusion of 'Saivites were rough and Vaishnavites were soft'! In fact vaishnavism was a derivative of Saivism (but as you know I'm talking ages back) and there were many popular vaishnavite kings. See this wiki article!

ஸ்ரீனிவாசன் said...

First para: accepted , every movie has it, but in dasa they mention it explicitly !!!and i am not sure abt Karma and all, it's just ur beleif. Chumma last jenma la vittadha intha jenma la continue panrathu ellam over da....appo hitler re-incarnation enna pannikittu irukku ???? innum jews irukurangale??? same with Gandhi, en thirumbi poranthu vandhu non-violence\brotherhood ellam spread panna vendiyathuthaana???? or u mean to say it will take another 800 yrs ???? athai prove panna neeyum irukka maata...dis-prove panna naanum irukka maaten !!!!

Well, second para, unmaiyya solraen, Kamal dont have guts to do it with other religion !!!! but i dont find it offensive, irundaalum it may affect some sensitive vaishnavites !!! those people can just avoid it !!! like many orthodox christians avoided Da-Vince code and Harry Potter series(due to black magic)Dei, ella vijakanth padathulayum tamil-pesura-pakistan-muslim terrorist kaaturainga, muslim sentiments wont get affected? appo enga poninga neengallam ?????

third para: WIKI aathaaram ellam selladhu thambi !!! it's editable, i can go n change it.....as per my reading from old books(konja varushathukku munnala padichathu), shiva followers are bit arrogant, even i cant prove it concrete !!!!

Agni said...

@Srini

Gandhi, Hitler is a very controversial topic and I'll keep talking for hours on that. Coming to the point, Karma talks about balance. The change that you do to a neutral system should and will be neutralized by you. In this movie Nambi and Asin of the 2nd Century were very staunch and liberal respectively. To compromise that the Govind character is an atheist and Asin is a staunch vaishnavite. Equation balanced out. It's not what I made up... It's from your own atheist story writer.

I'm not a vaishnavite. But I find it offensive when Vishnu idol is carried over to a train toilet. Davinci code did not insult Jesus. It said Jesus had a bloodline. If that became such a huge controversy imagine how big of an issue this should be...

The concept of Wiki is that you can go and edit it but chances are that your changes won't be in there for long. They are pretty good at that. And you said you can provide solid proof that Saivites were rough and Vaishnavites were soft. Can you tell me which book you are referring to and who authored it? Good and bad are everywhere. You cannot generalize Saivities/Vaishnavites as good or bad altogether. Individuals differ.

ஸ்ரீனிவாசன் said...

Para 1: Balancing !!!! maapla, nee sonna concept pramadam aana Y karma kooda pottu confuse panra???? apidi pona, jesus re-incarnation Hitler nu sollalaam, oruthaar over a chritianity valarthaar, innoruthar antha effect a kuraichar ???? as per the karma concept !!!!

Para 2: dei, neenga thaan thoonlayum irupaaru thurumbulayum irupaarunu solringaleda, anga mattum iruka maatara ? (i definitely know that it hurts you, but i m trying to make a point that dont instruct everything to others, pidikalaina kandukaama vitru)

Para 3: athu palaya book maapla, singapore la national library la vaangi padichen, some name ends with some desikar...but have not taken that book into a serious count, it just striked me when this argument came !!!!

Agni said...

@Srini

Point 1: Balancing concept nu scientific a sonna otthukkura adha karma nu sonnaa yaen otthukka maattaengira? Both are conveying the same facts!

Point 2: Thoonlayum thurumbulayum iruppaar na it means that he is omnipresent... Read 'ATOM', 'PARTICLE'. Ellaatthulayumae idhellaam irukku. Aanaa nee thattla dhaana saappudra! Toilet la saappudradhillaiyae. Andha maadhiri religious workship has some respect and there are places to do things. When millions trust in a concept then why offend it unnecessarily? What good did it add to the movie?

Point 3: When you get a glimpse at that book, do let me know. From an extremely neutral sense, I could say for sure that the statement is too generic and inaccurate.

Already it's become close to a chat thread... So if you have counter-arguments, let's take it offline :)

VINAYBAR said...

Ok,before I write something,please let me tell you that I am a physics grad and have a fair knoweldge of chaos theory(with mathematics and all.

Your point about other movies highlighting chaos theory is accepted,Dasa is not the first movie to incorporate it and definitely not the last movie.

Most laymen have been in a complete mess with this chaos theory shown in the film.Your point about the idol causing the tsunami is correct(though plate techtonics vis a vis chaos theory is still debatable).But,Kamal does not mention this at all as far as I remember.Look,in any dynamical system,altering the parameter by a small amount will contribute to disorder.The idol is NOT the ONLY cause of the tsunami,but it DOES play a role.

Ok,about the characters.Now,you have equated Karma to chaos theory.Chaos theory simply states that altering parameters will destroy long term predictability.Each and every character's life is altered,albeit a little by being connected to the vial in some way or the other.This is a mircroscopic study of a chaotic system and NOT perfect,but some cinematic liberties have been taken which in my opinion is all right.

Most movies incorporate chaos theory,but in my opinion none before Dasa,has it been stated obviously and been presented in a form where people can appreciate it without being stuck in mathematical models like Lyapunov exponents, recurrence plots, Poincaré maps and so on.

I am not a fanatical Kamal fan,but I do appreciate his work.Most of the so called theories which you are reading on the net have originated from me when I explained chaos theory in the orkut Kamal Haasan community.

Agni said...

@Vinay

I appreciate most of your points but let me provide the justification behind my words...

//But,Kamal does not mention this at all as far as I remember//

In the first scene in the movie where he addresses the crowd, he says even to look at the most basic version of the story we need to get back to the 2nd century and that is when the Nambi episode chips in.

//though plate techtonics vis a vis chaos theory is still debatable//

True. But I'm ready to accept if it is being shown as the cause of Tsunami hitting Chennai. Typical butterfly effect. Perhaps the Tectonic plate alignment was slightly disturbed by the idol hitting it and it might've meant a lot.

//Now,you have equated Karma to chaos theory//
Not completely. The way Kamal shows the whole thing is, Nambi is a staunch Vaishnavite and his wife takes the liberty of switching Gods to save her life. That in return makes Govind an atheist who cares about practicalities than God while Asin doesn't bother about anything but God. It is not strictly chaos theory, it's more towards the balance of a system which I can equate to Karma.

//none before Dasa,has it been stated obviously and been presented in a form where people can appreciate it without being stuck in mathematical models//

If you talk about simplicity, the word fate is much simpler to comprehend and it has been an integral part of our movies for ages. And talk about chaos theory being mentioned in a movie, I'd say if the initial word comes from the director's mouth completely off the screen like in Bommarillu or Kushi to explain what is being demonstrated and then there are just 2 Kamals Nambi and Govind, with the unnecessary Kamal characters being chipped off and the other Kamals being replaced by some other good actors; the movie would've been really good and fast paced. Honestly you don't need all the 10 kamals for the story to move on; though you can bring in 100 characters into the movie's screenplay.

//I am not a fanatical Kamal fan,but I do appreciate his work//

I'm not a Kamal hater either. As much as I appreciate Hey Ram or Anbe Sivam; I ought to say Dasa is taken with bigger intentions in mind but the end product is a bit lousy.

//Most of the so called theories which you are reading on the net have originated from me//
I didn't read them in the Orkut Kamal community. I read them in a few blogs and articles. I'm not sure if your words were pulled in there. But if you mean chaos theory or butterfly effect or the way it is intended to be shown in Dasa, I didn't pull it up from anywhere and I had a decent understanding of these theories even before the movie hit the screens.

VJ said...

Hi many thanks for this review. good one. Chaos theory and the history repeating itself procedure is what makes the story wonderful. I watched this film twice already and prepared a review myself: please find here:
Movie Review of Dashavatharam

Rams said...

Phew! Though I can understand that the Vishne statue hitting the ocean bed cud have caused the tsunami years later after this huge a discussion, it wasn't something that was clearly stated in teh movie. It shudn't take a phd for the common viewer to understand that... so to summarize, it wasn't effectively brought out in the movie.

But for the above cause and the consequent effect, I don't find a reason for Nambi to fit into the whole movie. But Yogesh bringing in Karma and the reincarnation of the pair makes some sense, which again wasn't brought forth in the movie.

As far Srini's observations on Karma, I don't think anyone can possibly explain it in this small space :)

Agni said...

@Rams

You could find at least one reason for the nambi character to come up in the movie. But imagine the other charcters - japanese, kalifullah, krishnaveni, avatar singh, Vincent poovaragan and Bush. They don't have a sole reason to come into this movie and the reason given is 'chaos theory' and they are all a part of the chaos. Everyone drives the result in one way or the other. CRAP!

// But Yogesh bringing in Karma and the reincarnation of the pair makes some sense, which again wasn't brought forth in the movie//

I'd say he did his best to show this concept. Examples:

1. Scene where Asin trips over on the stone at chozha mandapam (just before the introduction of Vincent poovaragan character)

2. Half of the Vishnu statue comes up to the surface in the Tsunami and the same Vishnu before whom they were separated evidences their union.

If we try to explain this beyond a limit, people will get bored because none comes there for spirituality or eternal balance. He wouldn't risk another Baba or Anbe Sivam would he? :)

Lakshminarayanan S said...

Good explanation of Chaos theory. But, 99.9% of the viewers don't need to know how Chaos theory has been embedded into the story. Most of them go for entertainment and mere entertainment. I am again saying, its again an illogical Tamil movie, but watchable for Kamal's histrionics, dare attempt and technical excellence. I was expecting him to curse Hinduism so it was not a surprise for me.

It was Kamal's mistake to bring out this concept in an interview, as if he is the first one to implement. Many movies have this form of screenplay without even knowing that it is based on 'Chaos theory'. Best example that I can quote is the Sarathkumar starrer 'Aei' :D

Unknown said...

Maapi .. back as promised after watching the movie.

Well well, good post here. I am not too sure how Dasavatharam implements Chaos theory, but the movie is a chaos at least. Chaos theory, butterfly effect, 10 avatars and its coincidence with these theories and KS Ravikumar's masala stuff, are a little too many to digest in one movie. Though it is a very good effort, still felt few things could have been kept simpler and thus better.

Other than that, the story and screenplay does deserve praise. Excellent adaptation not many can make and present in convincingly for a mass that is always aversive of intellectual films.

And finally coming to your post :), I did feel that Kamal has brought out good adaptation of the butterfly effect and chaos theory. But that is with the little understanding I have of the theories. Will have to do some detailed wiki-ing I guess. If I get convinced, I might rank this movie on top of my list for adaptation of a concept.

Smiles,
Vinayak

Agni said...

@Vinayak

As you said the movie is Chaos and nothing else. Chaos theory and fate cannot be differentiated very much maappi... So there is no venture needed to adopt the concept into a movie.

And as for butterfly effect I'd say it does make some sense but again as I mentioned, there is no way that anybody could reveal the initial flap that caused the effect! To me the movie would've been great if it focused on butterfly effect alone! Imagine... The film begins with a minor layman explanation of butterfly effect and the vishnu idol getting into the sea. Cut it and you have this bio weapon crisis, perhaps Fletcher, Govind alone into the picture. Chase and finally Tsunami. That would've been an impressive story line and an interesting screenplay. But creating a masala movie with 10 unrelated and half unnecessary characters and finding out a scientific escape to the screenplay was bullshit in my view! :) But again, art is a subjective thing and the degree to which a movie impresses a person largely depends on the person himself.

Anonymous said...

Only chaos or butterfly theory i see is

1) In 1990s kamal used to say " He 'll get Oscar and Tamilian and Indian will get Oscars"

2) 2007 came to know that Oscar is a distant dream and says " English men will come and should get award from tamilian"....
hmm for that pathetic CG scene?

The worst part is our fellow Tamil as well as Indians come to know about history after seeing movies, so much they are conscious about our history. So no point in arguing by asking questions like can they take a movie on Crusade wars?
There were never a mass destruction of vishnu temples by saivites or siva temples by vaishnavites. its mere small quarrel, when comepared to middle east religous wars.

After all kamal has so dutifully showed kalaignar and with compulsion showed jayalalitha. But when it comes to god he declares one sect following god is superior than other. No compulsion there right. But he mocks about ppl fearing god, when he is fearing for some political leaders, who has no power atleast beyond Indian borders :)

hmm after all god is always organic in giving judgements :)
but not leaders so he has to appease them.